Trusting God in the Waiting

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Even though we're praying and contending for things, our natural eyes may not see what we thought the answer would be, but still, at the end of the day, because of who I know God is, who He's shown up to me as before, where else am I going to go?

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Welcome to the iRefresh podcast, where every conversation points to the life-changing power of God's living Word.

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Let's pursue God together, one conversation at a time.

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Welcome to another episode of I Refresh.

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I am ecstatic.

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I have my dear friends, Danny and Carrie Kittinger.

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Welcome.

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Thank you.

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We are so glad to be here, aren't we, honey?

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Absolutely.

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Yes, we are.

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And why do we have them here is because we have an amazing new book that Danny's written.

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And from what I understand, it was a five-year project.

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It was a five-year project.

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I'm a slow writer.

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Plus, I'm busy doing other work for my normal job.

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Yeah, you have another job.

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Your other job is?

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I'm the CFO of a rail car leasing company called Trinity Chemical, TCIX Rail, and I've been doing that for 36 years.

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So riding is a hobby.

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It's a side hustle.

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It's a passion.

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What is the overview, the purpose of why you wrote this book?

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Sure.

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So, Cheryl, you were kind enough to have us on a while ago with my first book, What Matters Most.

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And when I started writing a decade ago, I felt the Lord's...

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I was at a retreat.

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I take these annual retreats where I get away and just seek the Lord.

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And I was at such a retreat when I was asking the Lord, is there anything else that you'd have me to do?

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And without question, I didn't hear it audibly, Cheryl, but I felt like I had a call to write.

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And I knew immediately it was to be...

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nonfiction, my heart towards God, the things that I valued immensely.

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I felt like we live in a pretty world that's lost its way in somewhat.

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And there's a lot of voices clamoring for our attention.

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And so I wrote a book called What Matters Most, really directed at my kids.

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Like I dedicated to my two kids and my nephew.

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If guys, if you're confused about what's important, here's some ideas.

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Try these on for size and maybe consider these.

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And one of those chapters was prayer.

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And in the preface to that book, Cheryl, I talked about a prayer group that I was a part of.

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And I believe you were a part of that for a period of time as well.

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Yes.

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I was thinking about that the other day.

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Quite a few years ago, yes.

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So 40 years ago, right out of college.

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Oh, no, he said the 40 years ago.

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And you said quite a few, and then he's given our age.

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I gave it away.

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It's been a bit.

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But anyway, gosh, young adults, we met for seven years.

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And during one of those years, we decided because we all felt inadequate at prayer, we love God and we gave it to Old Roberts University, most of us, and we have dedicated our lives to this invisible, mysterious God that we serve that came as a man.

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But prayer is an interesting thing, isn't it?

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Because we're communing with a God that we can't

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audibly here, maybe some of you can.

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I don't

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I've heard him speak in my heart and like that retreat, I heard him say it right.

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But anyway, prayer is this mysterious world.

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So that group, that prayer group, all those years ago, 40 years ago, we dedicated a year to prayer.

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And I wrote in the introduction that, you know, I don't remember anything we prayed for and I don't remember really any answered prayers, but I all know that we valued that year and we all felt closer to God.

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And to me, that's what prayer is.

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It's this moving in His direction and making yourself available to Him and asking Him questions.

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And we're praying for our kids today on a certain medical thing.

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And so you're just, you're constantly petitioning the Lord.

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So it is a mystery.

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The other thing that I think, Cheryl, the reason I wrote it is because we live in the buckle of the Bible Belt here in Tulsa.

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Right.

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And a lot of our faith leaders, no disrespect to anybody, but I think sometimes we present like we have all the answers.

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Rather, the mysterious thing that's beyond all of our understanding really is this relationship with God.

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And I kind of leaned into the mystery and the wonder a little bit in this book, trying to help those that maybe feel lost or frustrated or confused.

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Maybe a lot of their prayers haven't been answered.

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So that was my heart in writing this book.

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And thus the title, Dead Ends, Detours in a World of Wonders.

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That's so good.

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You know, one of the things I highlighted to you in your book is something I think all of us go through when you look at your prayer life is the scripture says, Why, Lord, do you stand far off?

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Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?

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In Psalms 10.1.

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And I just marked out truly why.

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You know, when you gave comments of, but you have never failed me yet.

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You know, and you started beginning, you know, think about it.

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You know, when is it a time when we are praying for something and we're still on the other side of it, in the back of our mind is, but we still have not seen, like you said, answered prayer.

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Right.

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And I feel like I'm a Jacob wrestling with God on so many different levels.

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You know, for us, you know, when our kids at all the different ages that they're at, right, and now grandparents, is that struggle we have that's legitimate.

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And still have that as a question in our heart, in our prayer life, is like, where are you?

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And yet it says, but you have never failed me yet.

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Speak to that to you, Carrie, as far as how you manage even those thoughts of that kind of a scripture when you're praying and believing for things.

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One of my favorite passages is when Jesus really starts talking about like, I am the bread of life and you have to partake of me and you have to eat of me and drink my blood.

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And people were going, what?

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And they were fleeing, right?

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And so the disciples are there and Jesus is like, are you going to go too?

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And they said, where else are we going to go?

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You have the words of life.

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So I feel that way in prayer sometimes.

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It's like, even though

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we're praying and contending for things and our natural eyes may not see what we thought the answer would be.

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But still, at the end of the day, because of who I know God is, who he's shown up to me as before, where else am I going to go?

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Right.

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And so I'm going to keep praying.

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And because I have I believe that Danny and I could look back over our growing up years and adult years and the positive encounters with God.

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outweigh so much more the questions.

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But the questions are there.

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Right.

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And so I appreciate that Danny's brought that out, that it's not always this like, I had this goose bump, God answered, and everything's been perfect since then.

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It's an ongoing relationship.

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I don't know that they ever will go away necessarily.

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No.

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I think Jesus up to the very end, I think the Emmaus Road story, these two disciples have been with Jesus.

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They saw him crucified.

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They were even in the room when the ladies came back from the tomb because it says they heard the story of he's alive.

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And they said, it's too much.

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This we're done.

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We're going to go home.

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We're going to go back to Emmaus.

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And then and then Jesus shows up.

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You know, I think the disciples being with Jesus, they saw him turn water into wine and then they saw him arrested and crucified.

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And and Jesus kind of all along the way

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It didn't necessarily answer all their questions.

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Right.

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But like Carrie said, he would get to the heart of the matter.

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Who do you say that I am?

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And listen, we've seen answered prayers.

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I mean, our daughter is a cancer survivor.

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And we've had a lot of losses.

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And yet we've seen the faithfulness of God in both the losses and the answered prayers.

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The prayers that haven't been answered the way we've prayed for them to be answered.

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And yet, so it breaks our heart, but we've still seen God's faithfulness in those times.

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And so we've hitched our wagon to God, and we're not letting go in Jesus as the Son of God and His healing power.

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We're there through thick and thin.

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I don't think anything could take us away from that.

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One of the early church fathers back in the third or fourth century said, a comprehended God is no God.

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And I think there is a piece of God that we'll never get our hands around.

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Right.

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Job's suffering, Jesus's crucifixion.

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I mean, we know he had to sacrifice.

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We believe that he sacrificed himself so we could all be his children.

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Right.

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But that brutal

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murder and suffering seems something you would never want David or Daniel to go through and we would never want Luke or Kelly to go through.

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So those are the things that are beyond our finite ability.

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It's a mystery.

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It is a mystery.

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I mean and I think what I really value in watching your lives over long periods of time is even in the hardest of times

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that you know I remember Carrie you've spoken in our gatherings several times and it was really is the where is your anchored?

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Your anchored is you are hooked in faith and trust in God even when

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The life is not the way that we imagined it.

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Right.

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And we can still have the whys, but yet I believe that there's a place where I've read it in your books.

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I've seen it in your lives.

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You are authentic of what you say here is it's what you live out is even though yet I will still trust you, Lord.

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And that's where I think is making people aware in this book of it does highlight, it doesn't ignore.

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You know, that we have highs and lows.

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And yet you continually stay in that place of prayer and an attitude of looking to God through it all.

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Yeah.

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Amen.

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Job is one of my favorite books of the Bible, and I'm not quite sure why.

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But, you know, Job went through it, right?

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He went through the gates of hell, and there is no explanation for the suffering that he had.

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He lost all of his kids.

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lost his business, he was covered with boils, all of his friends turned against him.

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And they thought, as probably, we would think, man, that guy's got problems.

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He can't be following the guy that we serve, or God would never allow that to happen.

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And yet it did.

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And God didn't defend himself.

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He didn't give Job an answer.

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But he just, when I say that, Sheryl, what I wrote there, I was trying to say, God just kind of opened up himself to Job and said, take a peek at who I am.

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And he let Job see.

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all of that majesty.

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And I think that took away all of Job's pain, all of his, all of his concern.

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He was like, Oh, you are the God that I've worshiped and trusted and served and leaned into my whole life.

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It's all true.

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I was rereading the Chronicles of Narnia, you know, speaking of wonder, CS Lewis does a wonderful job there, but there's a scene in the first book when a cabbie, a cab driver in London.

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unexpectedly and inadvertently gets whisked into Narnia and he wakes up in this magical land and he says, glory be, if I'd have known there was a place like this, I'd have lived a different life.

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And I think it's just that idea that...

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It's all true.

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Everything we hope for is true.

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And I'm good.

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That's all I needed to know.

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And I think that's what wonder does is that, because we're going to go through suffering, Cheryl.

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We just are.

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I mean, you've been through it before.

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Well, Jesus even said it, right?

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He said, you will have trouble, but take heart.

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I've overcome the world.

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So it shouldn't, I don't know why it's a surprise to us.

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Not that we need to go seeking after trouble.

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We're not looking for it.

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We don't want it.

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I don't want it.

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But when it comes, I think sometimes our first response is, well, what did I do wrong?

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Right.

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Rather than, Lord, how can I see you in this storm, you know?

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Well, and then we also have other believers who, maybe they're stumbling believers, who begin to accuse, just like we saw in Job.

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Absolutely.

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You know, you have your accusers on the sidelines judging you like, what did you do?

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Yep.

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Because, you know, you don't just get that in case you've earned it.

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You know, you've earned the turmoil.

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And I'm like, wow.

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They've got their scriptures posted on the wall.

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Here's all the scriptures, you know, name it and claim it.

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Which is good to do.

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It's just sometimes if you don't have a reference for suffering, then you're missing the full picture of the Lord because he's in the storm.

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He's in the sun and he's in the storm.

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He's in it all.

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And he hasn't forsaken us in those times.

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I love you bringing up Job, Danny, right in the middle of some of his deepest suffering, that famous line, I know that my Redeemer lives.

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There was something in Job in the middle of the suffering, even though he had questions and he was wondering where God was, there was this glimmer of hope.

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And I think that's what keeps us praying, is we know that our Redeemer lives.

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We have hope that this isn't all there is.

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You mentioned Assam earlier, and that's why I love David so much, because David was a man fraught with sins and made some serious mistakes.

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But God said he's a man after his own heart.

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And I think it's because David kept turning his heart to the Lord in spite of all the circumstances.

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The other thing we find in David's Psalms is that he was so honest.

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You've got the God, why have you forsaken me?

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You've got the God, where are you?

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I'm pouring out my complaint.

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And then you have all the wonderful scriptures.

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The Lord is my shepherd.

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I have no wants.

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I don't need a thing.

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So that's on one page.

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You turn the page and he's like, God, where are you?

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You've abandoned me.

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My enemies are crushing down on me.

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My bones are, I'm dying here.

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I'm walking through the valley of the shadow of death.

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Yeah, but the other parts I really like is when he's like, just smash and destroy them, my enemies.

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I love what he is so passionate about.

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Kill them.

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Destroy them.

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You know, repentance is yours.

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God, get them.

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Yeah.

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I'm like, go, David.

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I'm like, I see your humanness.

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Right.

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You know, like that human factor makes it.

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And I believe that God put that in there to realize he understands that we have all of these emotions.

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And yet it's OK. Just like you said, he still was known to be a friend of God.

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Yes.

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I, I, I, one of the quotes in the very front of my book, I have a U2 quote, uh, blessings, not just for the ones who kneel luckily, uh, which is in their song city, city of blinding lights.

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And I heard Bono on an interview with Eugene Peterson say that, that, uh, he has a hard time with Christian music because it's not honest.

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You know, we sing all these wonderful songs about God's greatness and His provision and all these blessings.

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But, you know, Bono said, we don't talk about the broken marriage.

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We don't talk about the divorce.

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We don't talk about the sickness or the child who passes or the...

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Country music has a lot of those songs, you know, and regular music does.

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Yes, they have.

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But I think that's in churches.

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I think we just need to be a little bit more honest with what the people are experiencing.

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And I wrote about that in that chapter where I was on a Sunday morning looking around and there was a guy.

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in close proximity to me, there was a lady who lost her husband to a heart attack.

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There was a guy whose dad had just died of ALS.

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And then there was Caries in mind and the stories we have of our family members.

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And I thought, in a church of about a thousand people, I'm within five feet of some pretty hellacious loss.

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And yet here we all are worshiping to God.

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And we were singing the song, Lord, if you can tear the walls of Jericho down, you can do it again.

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You know, it's a victorious song, but but like the words of the song go, I thought by now these walls would have fallen.

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Why haven't they fallen?

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I think we encounter that when we're praying for whatever and it hasn't happened, that loved one hasn't turned to Christ or that miracle of healing hasn't come or

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your financial situation hasn't turned around.

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If we can't talk about it and be honest and share about it, then people feel less than they feel like they're missing out.

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Like,

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like the accusers of Job were bringing to him, kind of pointing the finger saying, you're doing all these things wrong.

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And he knew that he was, he knew his heart was right.

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And so he was trying to reconcile their counsel with what he knew of God.

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And that's why when God kind of revealed himself to Job and said, you're all right.

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Let me just remind you of who I am.

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And then, and then he said, you know what, your friends are kind of screwed up.

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Why don't you go pray for them and I'll heal them too.

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You know, that's a good point, though.

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When you bring out about the accusers, you know, one of the things I know that we've heard from backsliders, those that are not going to the church and we call it church hurt, whatever version that is, a lot of people excuse themselves out of the church or they look at hypocrisy.

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Part of it is what you're saying, Danny, is that we're not authentic enough.

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Yeah.

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But I think we can start it, whether it's starting from the pulpit or we can do it ourselves right here, is like, let's speak to those places where we authentically, like, there are issues.

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We do stumble.

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We do fall.

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We do have our ups and downs.

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How do you handle judgment and maybe people misinformed because they see from a bird's view of your lives?

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I had a good friend say to me one time, you're going to be misunderstood.

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And, uh, you know, I can tend to be a people pleaser.

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I want everybody to be happy with me.

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I want there to be joy and peace in our home or, you know, in friendships, whatever that would be.

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But there are times.

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where like, you know, speaking of Job, he was misunderstood.

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And we can argue it away or we can entrust that to the Lord.

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And what I've noticed is when I've allowed myself to just be quiet in the misunderstanding, time will often bring about the truth.

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Or it just dissipates and it just didn't matter anyway.

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But in the moment, I've just had to learn almost to be okay with being misunderstood and allowing just hopefully the Lord in me to be seen in those times and to be the proof even 10 months down the road to go, oh, she's still the same.

290
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She hasn't turned on me.

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I was judging her, but wow, she really is leaning into her faith, even though it might have looked a little different than I thought.

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I would also add that I don't know if you can fight that, Cheryl, of being misunderstood.

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Like Carrie said, it's just going to happen.

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But it certainly helps to have loved ones, friends that know you and that you're fellowshipping with, that bring encouragement and counsel and know our hearts.

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And so though the crowd may misunderstand or though a pocket may misunderstand or these folks may misunderstand,

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Ultimately, those that you entrust with your heart, if they misunderstand, that's a whole different world.

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And because you have a relationship with them, hopefully you can press in and get that misunderstanding cleared up.

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But when you're being misunderstood by others, hopefully you can pour that out to those dear loved ones, and they can help guide your heart back to a place of sanity, of comfort, and of being right before God.

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Well, and getting back to what you had said, Cheryl, with David and the Psalms, I mean, a lot of those Psalms we can be uncomfortable with, but they're Psalms of lament.

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And so I do think that part of that is that we can trust God with the lament of our heart.

301
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We can trust Him.

302
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with the very broken pieces that we don't have to have all the words pretty.

303
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But I love how David, he always brings it back around, right?

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And so I think talking about just the worship time and when people were going through difficulty, it's good for us to get that lament out.

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But it's also good for us to gather with believers and remind ourselves of who God is in those times of worship, in those times of prayer.

306
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And so we need both.

307
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We need the lament process.

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We need people gathering around us, but also people reminding us of who God is and who we are in Him.

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I think it's so good because one of the things that you do highlight in your book, too, Danny, is you talk about even how to let go.

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When we're going through all kinds of various things in our lives, it's that process where we have to release some things.

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we have to release even when we have done something and maybe we need to be corrected and maybe we don't like it.

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Instead of taking offense to it is being willing to be open to like, okay, if I needed correcting, then I'm open to doing that.

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That submission to the Lord first, but then when you have loved ones who care enough to want to share something that makes us a better person, you know, a better person of the Lord, I think that's the thing I find that was so helpful is when you talk about letting things go.

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you said it seems like a death to all that is within our grasp.

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And it's so true.

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When you let go, it's like, I'm letting go of all the emotions and everything.

317
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Because, I don't know, that's girls sometimes.

318
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We just want to like, I just want to, I want to have my moment.

319
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I want to share how I feel and then I'll be fine.

320
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But sometimes it's more like less is better.

321
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Sometimes, like you said, then we don't have to apologize on the other end of it.

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Like, oh, because you can't take the power of those words that got released.

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You can't take them back.

324
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Absolutely.

325
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That's true.

326
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No matter what we say and repent of, it's still out there.

327
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And that woundedness, the enemy tries to use that to sever a relationship.

328
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That is the enemy's force.

329
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foothold and as believers is to divide us.

330
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And I think that's what's so great about what you both are talking about is how do we worship the Lord?

331
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How do we turn things into, we release what we feel.

332
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then we maybe need to repent and part of that, but then we worship and we pray it through.

333
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And we keep in those motions.

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I hear throughout your book it is those different steps that we're taking towards listening to the Lord, obeying what He's saying, and causing our hearts to have that communion with Him and with one another.

335
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Absolutely.

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It's so good.

337
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Yeah, the idea of letting go.

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I mean, I'm probably a little bit of a control person, control freak.

339
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I mean, I'm a type A perfectionist.

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And to let go of things that aren't perfect, aren't as I would design them to be, aren't as I would like them to be.

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You know, letting go of me and trusting him.

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I'd lie to you if I said I had that figured out.

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You know, even the idea of rebuke, of going crossing the line and letting the Lord rebuke you.

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It's funny because I think as a younger Christian, as a kid, I probably would have been afraid of those rebukes.

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Like, okay, I've sinned.

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I've gone too far.

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And now I'm on the naughty list.

348
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Santa's not coming to my house this year.

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You know, or I've stepped, you know.

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But I don't think that's who God is.

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I think he is so loving.

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And just like Adam and Eve in the garden, where are you?

353
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He came looking not to rebuke them, but to save them, to clothe them and say, okay, plan B.

354
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And he knew that was going to happen.

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I think he allowed Jeremiah and Job to pour out their complaint and go too far.

356
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And it was good for them to do that.

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And now he can speak to that and say, okay, out of line, let's get back.

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I'm God.

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Any thoughts on that?

360
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No, that's true.

361
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And I think if we have to calculate all of our prayers and calculate every word with God, we think, okay, both of us have new grandbabies right now, right?

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I mean, we don't want them like, oh, dear grandmother, I would like a cup of juice.

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I mean, there's a relationship.

364
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I mean, we're...

365
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We can be ourselves.

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If we're having a bad day, we don't expect our kids to perform for us.

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And God's not expecting us to perform for him.

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And so I think when we can get the picture of he's a good father, he is the good shepherd.

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He loves me.

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And yes, we discipline those.

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As our kids are growing up, there's times that we have to be

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Put him back in line.

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A parent.

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A parent, exactly.

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And so there are times that this good father that we serve, if we get out of line, but if we're always worried about never wanting to open our hearts because we might go too far.

376
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Or say the wrong thing.

377
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Listen, our tongues are important.

378
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You gotta be careful what you say.

379
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What does James say?

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Who can tame the tongue?

381
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It's a mess, yeah.

382
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It's a mess.

383
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It's like we can tame all sorts of animals, but we cannot contain the tongue.

384
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And I'm like, yep, that's right.

385
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But it isn't a, okay, lightning bolt's going to come down and strike me, or because I said that, I'm going to be sick the rest of my life.

386
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Well, gosh, I said I don't feel good.

387
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Right.

388
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Now I'm going to be sick.

389
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Right.

390
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I think what it is is, again, not having to calculate everything.

391
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Right.

392
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And when we have gone too far with our words, the Lord is very gracious to, or at least he is with me, to put me in my place.

393
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Right, sure.

394
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And to remind me, like he did with Job, of who he is.

395
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When you talk about in one of your chapters, so much of life has lived in waiting.

396
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And I'm like, I'm like, yes, it is so true.

397
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Especially as you get older and then you hear the younger kids talk about, oh, I've been waiting for so long.

398
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Like, oh, you just don't even understand what you're talking about.

399
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Really?

400
00:26:50.630 --> 00:26:51.751
You think that's waiting?

401
00:26:52.051 --> 00:26:53.612
You got nothing on me, right?

402
00:26:53.752 --> 00:26:55.993
I'm so like, that is the truth.

403
00:26:56.313 --> 00:27:00.594
I find that so often I'm like, certain things that we're believing for.

404
00:27:01.155 --> 00:27:03.736
The waiting is painful.

405
00:27:04.156 --> 00:27:06.177
But I love how, Danny, you talked about it.

406
00:27:06.197 --> 00:27:07.317
I said waiting is good.

407
00:27:07.797 --> 00:27:13.760
The examples of when it's good is when you talk about crops, when they grow, or when children maturing.

408
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:30.031
you know we're talking about our our babies are not going to do a whole lot it's you know we're going to be just loving them and caring for all every single one of their needs but over time they're going to be able to be able to take care of themselves as they grow older but and then you said waiting is good for

409
00:27:30.992 --> 00:27:33.614
relationships and flourishing and business deals.

410
00:27:34.034 --> 00:27:39.297
And so speak to that, both of you, of what do you do with the waiting?

411
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Because I don't know.

412
00:27:41.159 --> 00:27:48.503
I know God uses those moments, but there's times I'm like, Lord, if this is my trial, I did not ask for patience.

413
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And how many more years or moments do I wait?

414
00:27:53.707 --> 00:27:57.789
Or am I just missing your strategy of prayer towards what I'm believing for?

415
00:27:57.810 --> 00:27:58.350
Mm-hmm.

416
00:27:59.212 --> 00:28:02.194
Well, that's a loaded topic, isn't it?

417
00:28:02.334 --> 00:28:02.534
Yes.

418
00:28:02.594 --> 00:28:06.216
Because I think as Americans particularly, we are instant everything.

419
00:28:06.396 --> 00:28:06.857
Yes.

420
00:28:06.937 --> 00:28:09.118
You know, our hearts are the most important thing about us.

421
00:28:09.298 --> 00:28:17.263
And God does put things on our hearts to pray for and to believe for, to trust for.

422
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And, boy, there's a lot of waiting for all of those things.

423
00:28:22.006 --> 00:28:28.310
And I think waiting builds anticipation and it builds endurance.

424
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Yeah.

425
00:28:29.431 --> 00:28:36.035
And it probably leads us to exasperation and at the feet of Jesus.

426
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And maybe that is his plan.

427
00:28:40.997 --> 00:28:46.741
I don't think his plan is to punish us or to delay for some reason.

428
00:28:46.781 --> 00:28:52.964
But the timing of the Lord is one of those things that's probably, I would just throw out the beyond my ability to understand.

429
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And the seasons of waiting are, I mean,

430
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Listen, we have spring, summer, winter, and fall.

431
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We have the seasons, and we know proximally about what those are going to be.

432
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But those waiting times of marriage or job promotions or the fruitful ministry that you long for, the grandkids, we've waited for a while, and here we are finally.

433
00:29:20.191 --> 00:29:25.372
Boy, it certainly is a wonderful thing to celebrate once you get to the end.

434
00:29:26.380 --> 00:29:33.244
And you see the child mature, the business mature, grow, the things that you referenced.

435
00:29:33.304 --> 00:29:36.586
I think you look back on it and say, God, you were good.

436
00:29:36.606 --> 00:29:38.447
Even though it didn't feel good.

437
00:29:38.967 --> 00:29:40.768
It seemed like a long wait.

438
00:29:40.788 --> 00:29:47.372
And don't you think, really, thinking about farming, our son actually farms.

439
00:29:47.412 --> 00:29:48.973
And so we know a little bit.

440
00:29:49.013 --> 00:29:55.517
But most people, when we're reading the Bible, we don't understand the whole life of a farmer and the waiting.

441
00:29:55.537 --> 00:29:55.917
But that's right.

442
00:29:57.549 --> 00:29:59.911
Jesus' listeners in that time would have.

443
00:30:00.131 --> 00:30:01.593
They would have known that.

444
00:30:01.653 --> 00:30:04.255
And so really, you're waiting all the time.

445
00:30:04.356 --> 00:30:06.678
There's different crops that come up at different seasons.

446
00:30:06.698 --> 00:30:08.039
You're planting different things.

447
00:30:09.621 --> 00:30:13.745
You might harvest this in June and this in July and this in October.

448
00:30:13.885 --> 00:30:21.092
And so I almost think the rest of our lives, there will be something that we will be waiting on,

449
00:30:21.332 --> 00:30:24.073
And so I'm like, okay, Lord, help me to get better at this.

450
00:30:25.073 --> 00:30:28.814
But then I also think that there are those suddenlies.

451
00:30:29.554 --> 00:30:31.854
Like, you know, we've just had grandbabies, right?

452
00:30:31.914 --> 00:30:37.256
So you're waiting, waiting, waiting, and that due date can come and go, and you don't know exactly.

453
00:30:37.316 --> 00:30:40.756
But then when that baby's ready to come, there's no stopping it.

454
00:30:41.597 --> 00:30:47.098
And so I think sometimes we look back and go, gee, I wish I had enjoyed that time more.

455
00:30:48.082 --> 00:30:57.371
You know, because as soon as we as soon as that is fulfilled, then we're walking in the fulfillment of that and the waiting's over and we can then kind of go, wow, I guess I was complaining a lot.

456
00:30:57.892 --> 00:31:00.755
Like it's like waiting for a wedding celebration.

457
00:31:01.515 --> 00:31:03.477
You're kind of miserable waiting is all it took for it.

458
00:31:03.517 --> 00:31:04.098
And it's over.

459
00:31:04.562 --> 00:31:09.265
And you're like, gosh, I wish I was still planning the wedding or still anticipating all the great things.

460
00:31:10.006 --> 00:31:18.031
That's a really good point of we complain or mourn or it seems hard.

461
00:31:18.211 --> 00:31:21.193
And then the thing comes and you're like, wow, that went so fast.

462
00:31:23.272 --> 00:31:29.596
Well, you know, you've got the waiting thing, but one other thing I want to kind of close on an idea is that you talked about distractions, too.

463
00:31:29.696 --> 00:31:36.399
On the other side is we can get distracted while we're waiting, but we can get distracted just in what God may have for us.

464
00:31:36.800 --> 00:31:40.662
Because, you know, you and I, Carrie, we were just talking about, you know, it's like squirrel.

465
00:31:41.542 --> 00:31:46.703
I mean, all of a sudden, so fast, you can just get diverted.

466
00:31:46.763 --> 00:31:48.024
Like our attention span.

467
00:31:48.364 --> 00:31:49.704
I mean, what are we all doing?

468
00:31:49.744 --> 00:31:51.984
We're on our phones and we're scrolling.

469
00:31:52.004 --> 00:31:53.465
And it's like, how fast?

470
00:31:53.565 --> 00:31:55.565
But I'm like, I'm scrolling to get past all the ads now.

471
00:31:55.605 --> 00:32:01.167
I'm like, how many ads before I see people's content of my friends, I don't see that.

472
00:32:01.487 --> 00:32:02.127
Right.

473
00:32:02.327 --> 00:32:05.908
We are distracted by the advertisers or we're distracted by life.

474
00:32:07.408 --> 00:32:09.431
Like, let's speak to that.

475
00:32:09.551 --> 00:32:16.320
And how is it that the Lord can help us in those places to not be so diverted?

476
00:32:16.760 --> 00:32:20.525
You know, while there's one part we're waiting forever and the other part is we're so distracted.

477
00:32:20.565 --> 00:32:23.289
We couldn't hear God if he wanted to speak to us unless we dreamed.

478
00:32:23.669 --> 00:32:24.289
Those are great.

479
00:32:24.389 --> 00:32:38.693
Those are great questions, Cheryl, because it can be distracted by, you go down the list, sports, entertainment, raising a family, doing sports, going to school, going to work, all that that entails.

480
00:32:38.913 --> 00:32:44.154
So all of our distractions aren't necessarily bad things like food preparation.

481
00:32:44.174 --> 00:32:44.654
We can give an

482
00:32:46.147 --> 00:32:54.474
A lot of people spend an inordinate amount of times on their bodies at the gym or on their golf game or on things that are decent, but they just devote.

483
00:32:54.954 --> 00:32:59.578
So we can get distracted and place undue emphasis on many, many things.

484
00:33:00.579 --> 00:33:05.023
And that's where I think we have to choose daily.

485
00:33:06.656 --> 00:33:07.937
How am I going to live today?

486
00:33:08.738 --> 00:33:10.539
What am I going to focus on today?

487
00:33:11.140 --> 00:33:16.143
Taking time to do this today versus something else today.

488
00:33:17.665 --> 00:33:28.073
And I think that's where you have to follow your heart and keep that heart before the Lord and have him tell you, help you with all of those distractions to clear.

489
00:33:28.093 --> 00:33:28.693
Right.

490
00:33:29.380 --> 00:33:44.466
You know, the people that I admire the most, a lot of the, you know, I think of Eugene Peterson or Rich Mullins, and people would describe these folks as being able to see differently, to see clearer, to have a vision.

491
00:33:44.486 --> 00:33:48.227
And, you know, there's that scripture that says without a vision, people perish.

492
00:33:49.568 --> 00:33:55.010
And so to me, seeing what I choose to focus on,

493
00:33:56.124 --> 00:33:57.785
helps the distractions.

494
00:33:58.586 --> 00:34:02.689
If I'm looking and focused, I don't get as distracted.

495
00:34:03.349 --> 00:34:08.273
Whereas if I'm looking for the next entertainment or sports, I could spend all day watching sports.

496
00:34:08.293 --> 00:34:08.873
I like sports.

497
00:34:09.794 --> 00:34:13.496
I could waste a lot of time during football season, particularly.

498
00:34:14.357 --> 00:34:16.318
But I have to say, no, that's way too much time.

499
00:34:16.358 --> 00:34:19.020
I'm going to focus on my marriage.

500
00:34:19.080 --> 00:34:20.321
I'm going to focus on Jesus.

501
00:34:20.341 --> 00:34:20.401
I'm

502
00:34:24.398 --> 00:34:28.962
mentoring or encouraging or something besides all the distractions.

503
00:34:29.262 --> 00:34:29.643
That's good.

504
00:34:29.743 --> 00:34:29.883
Yeah.

505
00:34:30.203 --> 00:34:36.309
And for me, part of the distraction is then I'll look back and go, I actually missed the joy of the moment.

506
00:34:37.470 --> 00:34:49.260
And I do believe that, that, you know, when you see encounters the Lord with Moses with the burning bush or, you know, the woman at the well, what, I mean, the, the,

507
00:34:49.888 --> 00:34:55.391
the moments with Jesus, there were no distractions because, you know, they were face to face with him.

508
00:34:55.652 --> 00:34:59.234
And, but Moses could have not looked at the burning bush.

509
00:34:59.294 --> 00:35:03.236
Part of that story is he, he wasn't distracted by everything else around him.

510
00:35:03.276 --> 00:35:05.818
He was honed in on what's going on over here.

511
00:35:06.398 --> 00:35:09.460
And so I like what you said, Danny, about Lord, help my eyes.

512
00:35:09.941 --> 00:35:15.164
May I see the things you want me to see because the enemy always wants us off focus.

513
00:35:15.673 --> 00:35:19.734
Because if we're off focus, even just a little bit, we miss the main point.

514
00:35:19.814 --> 00:35:20.995
We'll miss the shooting star.

515
00:35:21.035 --> 00:35:26.917
We'll miss the joy of what he has for us in that moment.

516
00:35:27.177 --> 00:35:31.218
So I think one of the topics we've talked about, we highlight a little bit, it was the church hurt.

517
00:35:31.298 --> 00:35:38.001
And I would like both of you to really speak to what are some things that we can do on both sides, whether it's.

518
00:35:38.881 --> 00:36:02.177
the people that are the leadership of the church as well as the people that are outside of the church that would love to be a part but because of some form of hurt because we all have that expectation we don't say it but we actually live it as though we're all supposed to be perfect we know we're not but yet for some reason when we look at the pulpit or whatever we expect your perfection

519
00:36:03.258 --> 00:36:05.680
I also think, like, what is my responsibility?

520
00:36:05.720 --> 00:36:07.061
Have I prayed for the leadership?

521
00:36:07.101 --> 00:36:16.808
Have I done my part to ask God to protect those that are in leadership, that the Lord would hover them, protect them, convict them, keep them from sin?

522
00:36:17.349 --> 00:36:18.229
Is there accountability?

523
00:36:18.249 --> 00:36:18.790
What have you.

524
00:36:18.830 --> 00:36:32.100
But can you, Danny and Carrie, both speak to how do we help people move from the place of being hurt and walk into a place of wholeness and healing and come back into the church and finding hope in coming back?

525
00:36:33.534 --> 00:36:35.134
Yeah.

526
00:36:36.595 --> 00:36:48.217
Concerning those that carry church hurt, I would say that it's up to us to be Jesus with skin on, to bear the fruits of the Spirit to the people we meet.

527
00:36:49.277 --> 00:36:56.819
When we're in church, out of church, wherever we are, we carry the fragrance of the Lord with us, or we should.

528
00:36:57.799 --> 00:36:58.339
And I think...

529
00:37:00.112 --> 00:37:03.216
You know, I probably touched on some of the hot buttons in that book.

530
00:37:03.696 --> 00:37:14.908
I think, you know, sometimes our churches can be a little bit, those of us that feel like we have the answers can carry that with a little bit of pride rather than humility.

531
00:37:15.669 --> 00:37:20.074
And so how we're characterized as an individual, as a body, I think is important.

532
00:37:21.007 --> 00:37:35.160
So when we're ministering, when we're with people, I think the more we can be like Jesus to them, that goes a long way to curing the hurt someone carries in their heart towards the church when they know that we're believers and that we're practicing.

533
00:37:35.300 --> 00:37:36.722
We haven't given up on the church.

534
00:37:37.082 --> 00:37:39.845
Jesus hasn't given up on the church.

535
00:37:40.105 --> 00:37:45.370
As awkward as it can be, as filled with hypocrites as it can be, that includes us from time to time.

536
00:37:46.468 --> 00:37:55.778
And then secondarily concerning leaders, I would just say, as we have an opportunity to interact with those that lead among us, is you have to pray for them, Cheryl.

537
00:37:56.159 --> 00:38:01.404
But also, to be honest, when we have an opportunity to speak, that we're honest.

538
00:38:02.205 --> 00:38:03.206
And we share with them...

539
00:38:05.590 --> 00:38:09.933
whatever those things are on our heart that we feel like could make it a better place.

540
00:38:10.453 --> 00:38:17.859
And I think that's challenging because a lot of people bombard the leaders of churches with their perspectives.

541
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:22.061
And they, you know, our pastor will tease, don't give me any more emails.

542
00:38:22.302 --> 00:38:23.582
You know, and I don't know.

543
00:38:23.843 --> 00:38:26.985
I don't know how many people are sending me emails, but I don't.

544
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:38.616
But if I'm with them personally, or pastors, or anybody that is in leadership positions, and they ask, I think it's our responsibility to be honest and share those things that the Lord is.

545
00:38:39.827 --> 00:38:42.029
And, you know, I would tag that with you, Danny.

546
00:38:42.129 --> 00:38:45.953
I got to speak at a church recently, and I thought, boy, that is really difficult.

547
00:38:46.473 --> 00:38:49.776
And I thought, I would never want to have the role of a pastor.

548
00:38:49.936 --> 00:38:55.982
Like, you are literally, your job is to speak, and you're going to be criticized every single week.

549
00:38:56.262 --> 00:38:57.163
I thought, what?

550
00:38:57.483 --> 00:38:58.564
Who would sign up for that?

551
00:38:58.604 --> 00:38:59.145
Tough gig.

552
00:38:59.165 --> 00:39:00.306
Like, who would sign up for that?

553
00:39:00.326 --> 00:39:00.446
Right.

554
00:39:00.786 --> 00:39:05.850
If you didn't say the right story or if you saw people, you know, they're on their phones or their eyes are dropping.

555
00:39:05.870 --> 00:39:07.712
I'm like, what?

556
00:39:07.912 --> 00:39:14.478
And so I think even when we want to share love and concern is I think if we speak with grace.

557
00:39:14.638 --> 00:39:17.961
I also I've heard the friend of mine talk about it's the cookie.

558
00:39:18.161 --> 00:39:19.102
It's the Oreo cookie.

559
00:39:19.722 --> 00:39:22.944
You know, there's some correcting there, but there's also praising.

560
00:39:23.024 --> 00:39:30.510
And if they knew some of the great things of what they are doing, it helps to flavor our words with, like, here's the great parts.

561
00:39:31.090 --> 00:39:34.053
But, you know, it would be great if you ever considered.

562
00:39:34.253 --> 00:39:34.953
I've heard that word.

563
00:39:34.973 --> 00:39:36.454
I'm like, if you considered this.

564
00:39:36.634 --> 00:39:40.838
That way it doesn't feel like you're poking somebody and said, well, you have it wrong.

565
00:39:41.578 --> 00:39:45.202
I mean, all of us would like shut the door on that.

566
00:39:45.303 --> 00:39:45.783
Absolutely.

567
00:39:45.803 --> 00:39:46.063
Right?

568
00:39:46.224 --> 00:39:53.913
So I think we can say things in such a way that can help them receive the word that you feel the Lord has put on your heart.

569
00:39:54.694 --> 00:39:57.197
And I think, too, with the whole church hurt thing,

570
00:39:58.722 --> 00:40:07.084
if our churches would begin to, instead of trying to be like the top church in a city, like we're the best and we're in competition with one another.

571
00:40:07.104 --> 00:40:11.744
And I don't see that often, but I hear of it.

572
00:40:12.065 --> 00:40:21.406
And I mean, one thing I always enjoy when someone from our staff actually prays for another church or like, hey, there's other churches meeting and they'll call out different pastors' names across town or churches.

573
00:40:21.846 --> 00:40:23.487
Like we're not in competition.

574
00:40:23.587 --> 00:40:25.047
We're in the same family.

575
00:40:25.907 --> 00:40:36.057
And so maybe if, maybe there would be less offense and less hurt if we weren't always trying to defend that we're the best and, and this is the way we act.

576
00:40:36.217 --> 00:40:39.560
And it's like, we're just people, we're just human.

577
00:40:39.580 --> 00:40:50.710
Um, and, and then also to remember that just like with family as a mom and a dad, there is nothing more encouraging to me than when I see my children enjoy one another.

578
00:40:51.350 --> 00:40:54.075
And you think about that a church, we're the family of God.

579
00:40:54.936 --> 00:40:58.903
And the Father, it must hurt him when he sees us

580
00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:08.744
being critical of one another, judging one another, speaking badly of one another, trying to one up each other rather than to say we're family.

581
00:41:09.125 --> 00:41:09.685
And you know what?

582
00:41:09.805 --> 00:41:13.767
Sometimes we don't, well, we don't get to choose our families.

583
00:41:13.927 --> 00:41:19.570
And so sometimes it's, it's like, well, I really don't like you right now, but I love you because, because you're mine.

584
00:41:20.390 --> 00:41:22.552
And so I just, I wonder if

585
00:41:23.432 --> 00:41:39.345
if we really saw each other through the eyes of the Lord and saw other churches through the eyes of the Lord, maybe it would just take some of that pressure off of, and the offense off, like, if you want to go to another church, I bless you to do that.

586
00:41:39.645 --> 00:41:42.468
We don't have to hold on to everybody so tightly.

587
00:41:42.828 --> 00:41:43.389
That's so good.

588
00:41:43.589 --> 00:41:52.881
And I love how, Cheryl, you talked about, are we doing our job or our, I don't even want to say duty, but our honor of praying for our pastors?

589
00:41:53.142 --> 00:41:54.123
And are we doing...

590
00:41:54.685 --> 00:42:01.731
the honor of praying for our brothers and sisters in Christ who maybe are walking through church hurt and, and, and not trying to not shaming them, right.

591
00:42:01.931 --> 00:42:05.654
Continuing to call them, reach out to them and invite them to dinner.

592
00:42:05.674 --> 00:42:13.281
Um, and I think continuing to treat them like family, um, could go a long way.

593
00:42:13.341 --> 00:42:13.781
Exactly.

594
00:42:13.821 --> 00:42:14.462
They are family.

595
00:42:15.222 --> 00:42:16.002
You know, that's so good.

596
00:42:16.102 --> 00:42:22.644
And I think even as we're talking here is we want you to know that we care here at iRefresh too.

597
00:42:22.704 --> 00:42:24.425
We want to pray and connect with you.

598
00:42:25.365 --> 00:42:30.447
We have such incredible resources that you can go and connect at iRefresh.net.

599
00:42:30.507 --> 00:42:41.970
But the other thing is, is if you are feeling that, that you feel church hurt, or maybe even some of the topics we talked about with Danny's book about the waiting, or you've experienced a part of what Job has gone through,

600
00:42:42.650 --> 00:42:57.244
This is really a good resource to really stir up within you, help you kind of resolve, bring peace, even when you don't understand everything, that we can find the peace of God to help us to find what Paul says, I have found contentment, even in the place where I'm at.

601
00:42:57.305 --> 00:42:59.407
And he was saying that in prison.

602
00:42:59.927 --> 00:43:02.148
God has incredible hope and future for you.

603
00:43:02.508 --> 00:43:07.550
He desires for you to walk out of the hurt, the pain, not ignore it.

604
00:43:07.950 --> 00:43:11.372
Acknowledge it and press on and continue that dialogue with Him.

605
00:43:11.492 --> 00:43:12.532
It is about prayer.

606
00:43:13.032 --> 00:43:29.219
And that's where Dana and Carrie, they're all about prayer, about loving, showing the fruits of the Spirit so that we can come on the other side, connect and celebrate each other's wins, our sorrows, the victories, and the ones we're going to keep on believing for the healing and restoration.

607
00:43:29.759 --> 00:43:36.342
You know, it's interesting is we've barely even touched, what, maybe a couple chapters worth?

608
00:43:36.422 --> 00:43:37.542
Like we've only highlighted a few.

609
00:43:37.562 --> 00:43:38.023
Right, yeah.

610
00:43:38.103 --> 00:43:42.004
But that's the great thing about it is you can actually, you can get your own copy.

611
00:43:42.164 --> 00:43:45.666
And so would you tell us, Danny, how can we get a copy of your book?

612
00:43:45.706 --> 00:43:45.986
Sure.

613
00:43:46.266 --> 00:43:47.687
So there are any place books are sold.

614
00:43:47.707 --> 00:43:50.488
You can go to Amazon or Barnes & Noble.

615
00:43:50.848 --> 00:43:54.291
Or dannykittinger.com, and they take you right over there to Amazon.

616
00:43:54.311 --> 00:43:55.992
If you want to just go right to your website.

617
00:43:56.012 --> 00:43:57.213
dannykittinger.com, and you'll find them.

618
00:43:57.313 --> 00:44:00.156
So it's dead ends, detours, and a world of wonders.

619
00:44:00.316 --> 00:44:04.239
So we hope that you will not only listen to this, but share it with somebody else.

620
00:44:04.399 --> 00:44:09.604
Know that the hope of God is still there, that He hears, and He's responding to you.

621
00:44:10.124 --> 00:44:11.205
Keep talking to Him.

622
00:44:11.365 --> 00:44:12.566
He is here to listen.

623
00:44:13.066 --> 00:44:13.467
Amen.

624
00:44:14.127 --> 00:44:16.988
If this episode encouraged you, don't let it end here.

625
00:44:17.508 --> 00:44:23.430
Open your Bible, seek God's heart, and discover the life-changing power of His promises for yourself.

626
00:44:23.810 --> 00:44:27.932
Until next time, keep pursuing the God who changes everything.